Magic is still much stronger than martial in 5e, and now Fighters, Rogues and Barbs don't even make any interesting choices while leveling. There were several situations in which the image drew a spell, a big attack or other single use or recharge ability away from other targets. If the Fighter had to justify any supernatural abilities they get through a subclass not going to another class, they'd never get any such abilities.
I always go back to the Mystic Theurge when these Hexblade/Echo Knight/Cleric of Order broke the game arguments. Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs". The image was able to position itself in a way to avoid attacking through cover, even though it was exposed to danger, while the fighter stayed in a covered position that had full visibility.
Ugh. I ... with the abilities of perfect coordination between the Knight and their Echo offsetting the Echo's limited volition, but that bonus is not and should not be free advantage forever. They include things from being able to easily get in touch with local political figures, frighten foes as soon as initiative is rolled, or even fall from any height without taking damage. If so, why. As your reaction, you can teleport to magically swap places with your echo, regardless of the distance between the two of you. Yeah, I like the Echo Knight but I feel like it's probably between Samurai and Battlemaster, depending on which level you take a snapshot of. I get why the Echo Knight being powerful might cause problems when comparing it to other fighter subclasses.
If you are hidden, it benefits from the same Dexterity(Stealth) roll you made to establish your own DC to be detected. There are people who legitimately believe that martials should be deliberately designed poorly, and will absolutely lose their minds if you suggest otherwise; and by "lose their minds" I mean "spend three months PMing you death threats".
One recent example is the poison moss/spores in Wave Echo Cave that trigger when a "creature" moves within 5 feet of them. If it's possible for a warrior to learn such abilities then there is infeed nothing stopping a thief/expert/explorer/whatever from doing the same.
Although I should mention that the exact value will depend partially on how strict or liberal your DM is about letting your echo interact with the environment beyond simple attacks. Also also this isn't an issue of DM banning. all martials should have gotten maneuvers. Having only 1 HP is very limiting so there are certain kinds of obstacles that the echo simply cannot help you with, and those will turn out to be the situations you were counting on it. That is not to say that there are not places where the Echo Knight can do something that the DM may not have intended to be possible.
The fighter might have some of the highest single-target damage in the game, but they can't expend a resource to be able to speak all languages, or damage 15+ creatures at once 150 feet away. It should have been their unique thing against paladins' and rangers' spellcasting. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The Echo is not a creature and so spells such as fireball that state "each creature in the area must make a dex save or...." Do not effect it. Both the Unleash Incarnation and the extra OAs. But to me, that's a problem with what came before, not the Echo Knight.
People are worried about power creep, which is a genuine worry and being more alert to it would have saved other games from getting ruined by time, but I don't think Echo Knight is a good example of it.
Spellcasting enemies including Glasstaff, Mormesk the wraith, and Black Spider are all kitted out with spells and that require a "creature" as a target, so they effectively had almost nothing they could use against the dupe.
That's about it. It gives so many awesome options and makes it really feel like an interesting, well-rounded class. Certainly a powerful and useful ability, but haven't seen it harming the spotlight of the other players or making it more difficult to run challenging encounters. MOG, design a darn RPG system.
In fact, taking examples and powers/maneuvers directly from 4th ed is a great basis for homebrewing this whenever it comes up. Its combat tricks are more about mobility and area control, and the value of those depends very heavily on both the group and the player. The dupe, not a creature, could pass them harmlessly, and the echo knight could then switch with the dupe to avoid them. I'm not really allowed to post much anymore. A Barbarian that creates an Echo of himself by imprinting his passion and willpower into the universe. You get to attack from a safe distance and teleport whenever you want, and you can expend resources to do other things. It didn't even lock down OAs better. And the issues raised here are with the Echo Knight's exploration pillar performance, not it's combat performance. So I can better understand and explain to this dm how it works. Having a decent amount of power in addition to the great utility that the Echo provides is what puts this at the high end of the curve, but I feel this is something that will get blown out of proportion in theorycraft and not translate to the table. While the caster/martial disparity is better in 5e than it was in 3.5, it still exists.
So like many (or indeed most) things about D&D classes, the only answer is a shrug and "that's just how it is". Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon, End-of-Book Hiatus (and Holiday Ornament), Reduced Pre-Order Shipping Rates to Canada and Europe, If this is your first visit, be sure to Whatever use white room analysis has for evaluating a class in the combat pillar, it is not use whatsoever in the exploration an social pillars. Or a barbarian, for that matter, who is a warrior but angry. JavaScript is disabled. In the context of fighter subclasses, I might agree. 3.5 at least gave martials actual choices in developing their characters. I always go back to the Mystic Theurge when these Hexblade/Echo Knight/Cleric of Order broke the game arguments. The inequality of magic and martials has been in the game literally forever, and, hot take approaching, was always the absolute worst part of D&D. Currently 6 sessions into a Wildemount campaign and the party fighter has been an Echo Knight for the last two. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, Silent Speech so I never need to leave Wildshape. Your spellcasting fell a few levels behind a pure spellcaster, but while they were casting 7th level wizard spells, you had access to both 6th level wizard AND 6th level cleric spells. I think time will prove that the echo knight is not all that strong. You get it at 3rd level - when misty step is available - and most of what you can do with the Echo Knight in the exploration tier is pretty much something that can be done with Misty Step. This was addressed extensively. Nothing about Fighter says Echo Knight, but nothing about it says Eldritch Knight either. And, as noted, it is a whiteboard problem, not an actual gameplay problem. I'm gonna go ahead and judge this based on my actual experience of seeing this subclass in play in my campaign for the past three months. I think it's entirely reasonable. One soft fix to that to make it only really apply to tables that want it is to make Martial Adept better, so it's taken more often. Having more than 2 or 3 extra attacks PLR is probably going to end up being a Tier 3 thing, and if it isn't they traded something much better for it. iirc, they did in the playtest, and martial had a once per turn resource they could burn to use them. I cannot count the times that I've seen someone claim that such-and-such (in D&D, WH40K, or other games) is over/underpowered when in my experience in game it wasn't (and vice-versa with claims that something is not over/underpowered).
My point is, casters shouldn't be the ones to hog all of the cool stuff. That's not on par with 4 maneuvers like precision strike that turns misses into hits and they reset on a short rest. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. I have a sword and board fighter that's level 4 right now and I was wondering which option was better for being more well rounded, the hexing, eldritch blasting Hexblade or the more support focused EK? check out the. people complained that it was too complicated, wotc responded by making the champion (boring as hell) and battle master fighter (good, but now the maneuvers were X per short rest, instead of once per turn, so you used them way less often), and then the complainers proceeded to play wizards because they were never really interested in playing martials to begin with. But you can already get that through multiclassing and otherwise the warrior-mage archetype in general already existed in a couple forms. It will get evaporated by AoE and is REALLY easy to kill, so much of the potential for multiclassing dickery is mitigated based on the fact that it can eat your bonus actions like candy. A Rogue that has learned to "steal" luck for himself by acting out several possible fates at once.
SCAG cantrips and superiority dice offer more damage and versatility (and uses per day! A place to discuss the latest version of Dungeons and Dragons, the fifth edition, known during the playtest as D&D Next.
As-is, a lot of the maneuvers are just things that are already available to anyone, but slightly better. Swapping places with your echo has tons of potential uses, and the level 7 feature gives you one of the most useful aspects of a familiar (but still doesn't overshadow it, as wizards have been able to do it since level 1). But in the context of the game as a whole, I heavily disagree. The fighter went down a few times because he made the choice to use the bonus action on the echo rather than second wind. The factual answer is: because Echo Knights were part of Matt Mercer's setting before they were translated into a PC-accessible subclass. Rune Knight is the first subclass that has made me genuinely want to play a Fighter. One damage on turn 1 is worth 2-3 damage on later turns because they can potentially remove a threat (or two threats) before they even attack. Let me go over things I like about the Echo Knight. And if it isnt. I DMd a Battlemaster Fighter for 20 levels in my prior campaign, and played an Eldritch Knight for 14 levels through Tyranny of Dragons, and I'd put the Echo Knight so far on par with them, just in a unique way. Classes need to be different enough to feel distinct, or else you wind up with the main reason people disliked 4e. I.e be more like 4th ed. Indeed, Echo Knight isn't going to be winning any DPR contests. Hi, I was wondering which dip was better for an echo knight.
Where I think the Echo Knight will really shine is the exploration pillar, actually. Seriously, the amount of ideas Ive gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You must log in or register to reply here. It doesn't sacrifice anything to get to where it is, and also doesn't overshadow them in the fighter's main shtick.